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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle you know there's explanation

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for everything that occurred in the

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rendel champions incident that doesn't

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involve aliens at all it was completely

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silent it comes right over our heads he

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saw a classic flying saucer really

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standing in the clearing he turned over

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to my father and held his hand and he

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looked in his eyes and said we're not

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hello and welcome to the show the show

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we call podcast ufo i'm martin willis

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your host and we're coming at you live

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like every wednesday at 9 00 pm eastern

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standard time on the dark matter radio

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network

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and if you're listening live you can

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jump right over to the chat room at

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podcastufo.com

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well i plan on being once again at the

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new england ufo conference

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last year it was a blast and it is being

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held in leominster massachusetts

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it's on the night of october 17th which

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is a friday and saturday the 18th and i

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will post a link to it on our website in

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the show notes stanton friedman will be

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there kathy martin peter robbins mark

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d'antonio the enos and many more should

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be a lot of fun

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and remember i know well i'm actually

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going to be upstairs

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in a room with the enos we're going to

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be sharing that but i'll be out on the

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floor a lot and

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i'll wear a ufo hat so if you see a guy

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i should be the only one there with ufo

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hat see a guy with a ufo hat say hi to

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me please i would appreciate it well we

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have another great show for you tonight

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alejandro rojas of

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openminds is coming right up with the

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news after that our guest and well he

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wants to be referred to as eric the ufo

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agnostic

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i heard eric on another show a while

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back and uh he's really looked into the

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ufo topic

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he has a lot of really good points and i

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assure you he will be a fascinating

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guest later on so we're ready for the

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news how are you alejandro

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hello i'm doing great how are you

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excellent excellent so what do we have

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going on this week for news oh there's a

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lot going on so i guess i'll start with

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uh the most exciting news going on right

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now

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and that is uh some ufo sightings in

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colorado and utah mostly in colorado at

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least that's where the most exciting

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stuff is going on i think but uh this is

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pretty cool so the other day on nine

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news the nbc affiliate posted a story

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and some pictures of a ufo that one of

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their reporters saw

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multiple people had seen it the police

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were called the police said they saw it

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as well

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and so what's really cool about this is

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that the reporter matt renau is like

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standing by what he saw he said so far

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i've heard nothing that can really

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explain what i saw he said he saw some

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shiny white dots that were in the sky he

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watched them they didn't move and he

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kind of puts it you know we watched him

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for five minutes or six and 10 15 and

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then finally they kind of flashed and

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then moved off very quickly above the

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mountain

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so he's like you know i don't know what

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would do this this is really strange

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this is really uh something

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extraordinary

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so they talked to the police the police

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said yeah uh you know we saw them too

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this is this is some wild stuff and then

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they also called norad norad said that

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we haven't registered any anomalies but

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we are investigating so uh and the story

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concluded that the sheriffs were

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investigating also so really cool

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however another story came out from the

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local paper

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from the summit i think it's a summit

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county paper the county that

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breckenridge is in

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and they said that police said they

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aren't investigating they also called

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norad who said they aren't investigating

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uh they both just said the police said

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we saw it but you know what are we

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supposed to do and norad kind of was

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similar they didn't register anything so

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that's probably closer to the truth

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well and what are they supposed to do

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you know they saw it or you know so it's

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hard to say this is what's frustrating

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though and i i ran into this in the very

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first ufo case that i ever investigated

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they called the faa and the faa says

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well we're not in the ufo business we're

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in the air safety business so call new

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fork or or somebody that you know is

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monitoring ufos which is absolutely

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ridiculous because they're monitoring

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air safety but they don't want to know

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about unidentified objects flying around

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in the same airspace as commercial

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aircraft and that makes absolutely no

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sense i think that's really frustrating

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but

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that's what they told the summit county

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newspaper pretty cool stuff a great case

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and now it's starting to go viral and

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it's being reported all over the place

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now this

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there's no chance that when you say it

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moved off in a high rate of speed it

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too high rate of speed to be a drone of

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any kind because i know the drones can

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you know they can hover in one area

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that's true a drone can do this these

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look pretty high um you know and then it

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zipped off at uh

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probably i mean it would have to be a

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large drone maybe some sort of military

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type of thing and plus it was shiny and

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visible like a dot i mean these things

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look like a dot in colorado in fact i've

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seen these things in colorado a couple

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two of my ufo sightings have been of

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very similar things and when i was a

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mufon investigator out there we used to

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get a lot of this

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um but

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so

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it's hard to say i mean i guess it could

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uh possibly but that's what's hard these

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days you know and one of the other

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papers covering uh another story the

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hong kong one kind of says drones really

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screw up ufos ufos are screwed now

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because of drones and i think we've

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talked about this before

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because anything can be drones at this

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point so it's hard to say because drones

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are very maneuverable

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and you can can appear as

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metallic shiny things in the sky so

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it's really tough to say so what else is

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going on in the news this is another

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story that's uh kind of hitting the at

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least the ufo world not so much hitting

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mainstream as much this is a sighting in

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kansas where the witness caught

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two ufos on a photo supposedly allegedly

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and it was actually submitted to mufon

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from a friend of theirs who said this uh

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called the picture amazingly clear

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the

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definitely seems to be because it's

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taking a picture of the sun it appears

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to me to be a lens flare which happens

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you know when you're taking a picture of

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the sun

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however there's another object that is

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kind of kite shaped that is more

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mysterious which is kind of weird in

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this picture

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one of the problems pointed out by

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robert powell who is the mufon director

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of research when we posted this on

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facebook he said he noticed well the

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picture is really small it's only 60k

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so this must be a crop or just a tiny uh

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you know

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somebody's manipulated the image to make

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it smaller so it's a little bit

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suspicious and that the picture has been

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manipulated but

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it's certainly not the original and he

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notes that you know we'll really need to

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take a look at the original to make

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anything out but uh it's kind of making

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its rounds out there and it's been uh

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one of the more popular stories this

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week as well yeah right i think i saw

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that picture it looks like almost like a

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a triangle sometimes something like a

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triangle okay and what's the last story

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for this evening

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the last story is what i want to talk

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about it is making rounds in the

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mainstream media but luckily at open

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minds we have a little bit more insight

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into this story because we've been

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covering it and we've had one of the

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scientists as part of this team

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at our conference last year and he made

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some pretty incredible news that

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actually lee spiegel of huffington post

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wrote up about and it made a lot of news

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in the mainstream

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and that is this group of

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astrobiologists

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one of them talked to the daily express

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in the uk and there is this group of

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astrobiologists out of the university of

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sheffeld and the university of

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buckingham center for astrobiology who

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say they have an abundance of proof that

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extraterrestrial life exists now they

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said this a year ago

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they've written papers here and there to

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talk about it

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we had richard hoover who worked with

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nasa for 46 years and he also started

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the center for astrobiology at

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a university at

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marshall space center

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for nasa

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so and he says you know the same thing

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essentially what they were talking about

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are

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meteorites that look like they have you

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know microorganisms in them and they are

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convinced that these are microorganisms

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even the meteorite from mars you know

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that made a lot of news when bill

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clinton came out and said we found e.t

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life uh and now skeptics have said well

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maybe not so much

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about a year ago they had made these

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claims because what they did was send

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some balloons up into the stratosphere

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during the perseids

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meteor shower and these balloons had

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devices on them that opened up once they

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got to the stratosphere exposed these

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slides to the atmosphere

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then closed up and these things were

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sealed so it would come back and see

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what was in the stratosphere

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at the time they said they found objects

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which they believed were microorganisms

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they argued there's no way they could

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have got up there

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and commonly believed that nothing can

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get up into the stratosphere from the

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earth not even microbes so that was our

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argument

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however in this recent interview

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with another one of the scientists with

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the daily express he talks about how now

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they even have more evidence from the

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data they collected there they have

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something called a dragon particle which

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is a biological

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entity they say some sort of

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microorganism that is not here on earth

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the other arguments they make is that

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when they expose those slides they

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didn't get dust or anything else but

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these microorganisms

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so in other words if there is something

278
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:52,320
some way volcanoes or wind that took all

279
00:10:56,710 --> 00:10:54,560
of this stuff into the stratosphere why

280
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:56,720
did it only take these microorganisms

281
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:58,399
why aren't they seeing other things how

282
00:11:02,949 --> 00:11:00,320
did they get filtered out so that's

283
00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:02,959
another i think a great argument that

284
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:05,040
they make that you know supports that

285
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:07,680
this is actual extraterrestrial life one

286
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:09,760
of these guys is the guy who came up

287
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,000
with the idea or or helped come up with

288
00:11:16,389 --> 00:11:14,800
the idea of panspermia

289
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:16,399
and which they believe and they're

290
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:18,320
essentially saying this is more evident

291
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,440
that

292
00:11:24,069 --> 00:11:21,760
you know life is abundant out there and

293
00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:24,079
it's traveling from planet to planet via

294
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:26,880
meteorites and asteroids and this

295
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:29,519
demonstrates that it's literally raining

296
00:11:34,069 --> 00:11:31,920
down on us and another reason that this

297
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:34,079
story is timely of course is because

298
00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:36,000
russian scientists recently said they

299
00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:39,120
found plankton on the iss that's right

300
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:41,920
and he's arguing hey that thing's 200

301
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:44,320
miles away there's no way something from

302
00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:47,040
earth blew up there onto it

303
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,399
just like our findings in the

304
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:50,560
stratosphere it's very possible these

305
00:11:53,389 --> 00:11:52,480
are space-borne

306
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,399
you know

307
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:55,440
micro-organisms that had attached

308
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:57,519
themselves to the iss

309
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,079
so really really interesting stuff and

310
00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:02,399
their evidence is just building and

311
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:04,959
building and building and i think it's

312
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:07,279
really exciting because that you know

313
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:09,360
it's kind of like for a while now i

314
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,200
don't know how you feel we've been on

315
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:14,079
the cusp of an official announcement of

316
00:12:17,949 --> 00:12:16,160
of the discovery of extraterrestrial

317
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:17,959
life right and you have these

318
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,480
astrobiologists including hoover who you

319
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:22,720
know lee spiegel did a video interview

320
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:25,440
for us that we've posted in the story

321
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,760
where he talks about this is hap this is

322
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:30,000
real it's been real for a long time it's

323
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:32,320
just taking the scientific community a

324
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:35,279
while to accept it but i think soon they

325
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:37,200
will and i really think that that's a

326
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:40,399
big deal for our field because once

327
00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:42,160
people realize there's there's life and

328
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:44,720
it's abundant it's in it's as close as

329
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:47,440
you know in the space just outside of

330
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:50,399
our own atmosphere that it makes it

331
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,600
highly highly highly more likely that

332
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,680
there are advanced civilizations out

333
00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:57,360
there as well it could be just floating

334
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:00,240
around space in general you know exactly

335
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,639
that's pretty amazing you can go to the

336
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,079
show notes and

337
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:05,760
find the links to all these stories that

338
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,000
alejandro has just mentioned we'll see

339
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:10,079
you next week alejandro thank you

340
00:13:15,269 --> 00:13:13,279
all right thank you talk to you soon

341
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:15,279
so hang in there we'll be right back

342
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:17,519
after this short music break with eric

343
00:13:50,160 --> 00:14:12,949
foreign

344
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:15,670
i should mention that music is like all

345
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:18,079
our music by carrie lloyd whitehouse

346
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:19,839
he writes music for the show and thank

347
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,639
you for that carrie and our guest eric

348
00:14:25,829 --> 00:14:24,320
how are you

349
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:25,839
i'm good thank you

350
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:28,160
thanks for joining us and i mentioned

351
00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:31,040
earlier that i heard you on another show

352
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,079
and uh really enjoyed listening to you a

353
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,399
lot of valid points and

354
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,480
um i know you want to remain anonymous

355
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:40,639
but is there any part of your background

356
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,000
that you can

357
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:45,120
sort of throw out there

358
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,000
sure um

359
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:50,800
i have a background in organized

360
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:53,199
skepticism

361
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:55,120
in terms of being one of the co-founders

362
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:56,959
of a skeptic

363
00:15:01,430 --> 00:14:59,440
organization back in 2000

364
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:01,440
which is well which was at the time

365
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:03,600
designed to be a national

366
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:05,120
um

367
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:07,839
organization of national scope

368
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,560
whose purpose was to launch as many

369
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:12,480
skeptic groups on college campuses as

370
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:13,519
possible

371
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:15,040
and so at the time there were a few

372
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:18,399
dozen groups like that around the u.s

373
00:15:20,790 --> 00:15:19,279
and

374
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:20,800
last count

375
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:21,600
i'd

376
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:24,079
get between 350 and 400 groups

377
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:24,839
like

378
00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:26,480
that

379
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,360
so um i've had an interest um i guess

380
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,120
from the skeptic side and a lot of

381
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:33,279
paranormal things for quite some time

382
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,360
because i find the

383
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:37,600
um the question about the the border

384
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:41,199
between science and

385
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,519
i guess you could say anti-science maybe

386
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,880
if that doesn't sort of prejudice the

387
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:46,240
debate um

388
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:47,600
in the assumption

389
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:49,199
to be a very interesting kind of

390
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:51,120
discussion so

391
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:52,720
i guess that's

392
00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:54,320
part of my background that's relevant to

393
00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:58,639
this uh-huh and uh you know that

394
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:02,000
i don't mind a skeptic it's it's when

395
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:04,320
someone is a skeptic just by

396
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:06,800
proclamation only and there's

397
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:09,440
there's more or less you know just uh

398
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:10,800
debunking

399
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:17,120
into it and after i listened

400
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:18,639
to your show

401
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,000
you could tell you really looked into

402
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,560
the subject and the people will i'm sure

403
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:24,720
feel that way as we talk

404
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:26,320
uh later

405
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:31,360
um more about this so um what is your

406
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:32,639
you more or less

407
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:36,000
think it's it's possible right that um

408
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,800
that we could be being visited i mean

409
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:41,040
you're not ruling it out

410
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:47,110
one of my

411
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,320
uh main critiques of skepticism with

412
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,639
regard to the ufo question

413
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:55,600
is that i think you can identify

414
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,160
a kind of

415
00:17:02,710 --> 00:16:59,759
metaphysical

416
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:02,720
and also psychologically hidden

417
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:04,000
rejection of the past even the

418
00:17:07,110 --> 00:17:05,280
possibility

419
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:07,120
that there could be

420
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:08,799
beings from other

421
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:12,880
you know parts the the cosmos uh here

422
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:14,480
um

423
00:17:18,789 --> 00:17:16,160
so yeah i'm

424
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,799
i would consider myself an agnostic but

425
00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:20,880
even leaning towards

426
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:22,959
um the possibility if not likelihood

427
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,280
that some of the cases might be

428
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,600
best explained by the extraterrestrial

429
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,520
hypothesis but

430
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,400
you know i don't feel any kind of

431
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:34,799
inner sense of certainty about that but

432
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:35,760
it's

433
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:39,280
began because i began

434
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:40,880
you know like many

435
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:43,360
other skeptics reading skeptic magazines

436
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:50,070
as long as you don't step off that

437
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,520
plantation

438
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:53,520
and do a bunch of other reading and

439
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,880
talking to people

440
00:17:57,909 --> 00:17:56,160
you're very much apt to get the

441
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:57,919
impression that

442
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,480
the whole field of ufology

443
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,720
is of the same

444
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,880
credulous

445
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,559
uncritical fabric

446
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:08,160
as are a lot of other

447
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:09,840
questionable beliefs

448
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:11,600
but there are

449
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:14,720
a few things that i read that really

450
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:16,720
made me rethink that and it's been sort

451
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:17,919
of a

452
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:21,440
unsettling journey to think that um

453
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:23,679
i guess the scientific establishment

454
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:26,960
could possibly be just radically wrong

455
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:29,120
about this question

456
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:30,799
um you know the topics come up many

457
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:33,120
times why doesn't science you know take

458
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,080
this

459
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:36,480
seriously and you know a lot it's it's

460
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:39,440
very fleeting evidence for the most part

461
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,360
there's no money

462
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:43,520
and uh the best uh the best explanation

463
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:45,520
i heard of why science doesn't get

464
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:48,320
involved was from a previous guest

465
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:51,360
jeffrey bennett who is an astrophysicist

466
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,840
and he basically said the reason science

467
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:55,360
doesn't get into it is because it's not

468
00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:58,240
a quick problem solved

469
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,400
most people that get involved in science

470
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:02,640
and want to get funding they want the

471
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:04,559
quick problem solved so they can

472
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:07,919
actually get the funding for it and so i

473
00:19:11,909 --> 00:19:09,440
understand that but

474
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:11,919
if you if you um

475
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,480
what is your feelings about if there was

476
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:16,559
actually funding for

477
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:18,640
research do you think scientists or at

478
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,240
least some of them would

479
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:22,080
look at the subject a little more

480
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:24,240
seriously

481
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:26,799
i suspect yes although i'm just sort of

482
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:28,080
going on

483
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:31,600
general background information about how

484
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:33,120
um

485
00:19:36,870 --> 00:19:34,640
people in general that i've read about

486
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:36,880
respond to this and

487
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:39,200
um i guess also in particular i'll add

488
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:40,880
that

489
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,880
if i could switch this just for a second

490
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:45,520
to the realm of um

491
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,200
uh you know

492
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:49,600
psychic power telekinesis and so forth

493
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:51,360
i'm still fairly skeptical about that

494
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:52,799
but i have heard people who've been

495
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:54,559
involved with that that

496
00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:57,280
they will get contacted by mainstream

497
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:59,440
academics who say you know don't tell

498
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:00,799
anyone that i'm

499
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,559
contacting you but i'm i'm actually

500
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:04,480
really interested in this and i'm not so

501
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:05,600
sure that

502
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:08,080
um what you're up to is

503
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:09,919
you know completely mistaken

504
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:10,880
um

505
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:11,760
so

506
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,559
i suspect that's the same for

507
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:15,760
um

508
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:19,520
that

509
00:20:21,830 --> 00:20:20,400
you know

510
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:21,840
that there would be some percentage of

511
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:23,200
people who would

512
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,000
uh be more than happy to accept a grant

513
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,559
to uh uh take a look at this but that's

514
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:31,200
that's my read of it anyway

515
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,159
and what do you say to um what do you

516
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:36,320
say to the skeptical

517
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,039
quote that i hear many times is um

518
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,760
where there's too much distance for any

519
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:43,679
interstellar travel

520
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:46,480
there's it would take too long

521
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,280
are you open-minded in the

522
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,280
the area of the the fact that they may

523
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,520
know something about physics that we

524
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,240
haven't discovered yet

525
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:58,400
yeah and i think

526
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,360
um

527
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:01,280
strictly speaking

528
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:02,880
you have to be open-minded about that

529
00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:05,120
because

530
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,909
if we knew the answer to every

531
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,240
scientific question ahead of time

532
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:14,320
then there would be no point

533
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:16,640
in the scientific process but there's a

534
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,600
great deal that we we don't know

535
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,669
you have to assume that

536
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,600
you know if an intelligent civilization

537
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,600
the civilization

538
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,080
you know had managed to

539
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:32,559
get past what might be a you know

540
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:34,400
universe-wide threat of nuclear

541
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,880
annihilation and

542
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:39,039
resource use overshoots and pollution

543
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:41,120
etc if they were to get past those kinds

544
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:44,000
of bottlenecks in their development

545
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,200
and

546
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:47,440
assuming a similar technological

547
00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:49,600
trajectory to where we're at

548
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:51,919
you know 500 years

549
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,520
which is pretty modest

550
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:55,520
but what about a hundred thousand

551
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:56,880
a million

552
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:58,960
ten million

553
00:22:02,149 --> 00:22:00,960
um it's entirely possible and even

554
00:22:04,149 --> 00:22:02,159
likely

555
00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:04,159
that uh their understanding of the

556
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,640
cosmos is much further along uh than

557
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,400
ours

558
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:10,320
so yeah i

559
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:11,440
it's

560
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:15,120
it strikes me as a kind of um

561
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,159
um

562
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:18,960
kind of parochialism to think that

563
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:21,679
uh whatever we know right now

564
00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:23,760
um pretty much has to be

565
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:25,600
determinative about what people a

566
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:29,120
thousand years you know uh might know um

567
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,039
it's just

568
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:33,840
we've been demoted too many times um in

569
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,600
our quest to understand ourselves in the

570
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,840
universe and um it's entirely possible

571
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,840
that will happen again so i think it's

572
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:41,840
best to keep an open mind about that

573
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:43,200
possibility

574
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,480
now

575
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:46,559
a lot of people don't really even think

576
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:47,840
about this

577
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:49,039
unless

578
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,080
they have had something happen or

579
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:54,159
it gets put right in front of them um

580
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:57,440
what made you look into this subject and

581
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:59,200
when i say that i mean just say the

582
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,799
average person walking the street very

583
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:03,280
few people even think about

584
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:05,200
extraterrestrial life

585
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:06,880
maybe a little more now that it's in the

586
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:09,600
news a lot you know with the

587
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,080
exploration we're doing but uh what made

588
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:14,320
you uh actually look into this

589
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:18,230
um

590
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,840
well like i said before i've always been

591
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:22,080
interested in the paranormal in general

592
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:23,840
but specifically with regard to the ufo

593
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:25,919
topic

594
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:27,039
i think

595
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:29,200
this stood out for me because

596
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:32,320
i didn't have a theoretical

597
00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:35,600
i guess you could say stopping point

598
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:37,760
there was no theoretical reason why

599
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:39,520
other than the great distances uh

600
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:40,640
involved

601
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:43,840
that um some ufo sightings you know

602
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,080
couldn't be from some place other than

603
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:48,080
earth

604
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:51,760
and to me this has always differed from

605
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:52,559
other

606
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:54,880
paranormal type questions like

607
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:57,760
ghost let's say or

608
00:24:02,310 --> 00:23:59,440
uh bigfoot

609
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:02,320
um psychic phenomena etc

610
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:03,279
um

611
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:05,360
there with these other areas there seem

612
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:07,440
to be too many theoretical reasons to

613
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:08,720
think that it's

614
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:11,039
they probably don't exist um but i

615
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:12,880
retain an open mind about those uh as

616
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,679
well

617
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:15,840
but with this one in a way i'm almost

618
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:19,440
surprised that um you know sometimes

619
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:20,320
that

620
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:22,480
you know a giant mothership hasn't

621
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,120
landed on white house lawn um

622
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:27,360
the the only real theoretical issue here

623
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:28,240
is

624
00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:33,120
involved it seems to me but um

625
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:34,880
there were a couple things that that

626
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,159
really sort of started turning me in

627
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:38,000
this direction um i think the first

628
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,520
thing maybe was

629
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:41,679
there was a book that came out in 1998

630
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:43,919
called dancing naked in the mind field

631
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:46,559
by carrie mullis

632
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,840
he's a

633
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:50,159
nobel prize winning

634
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,320
chemist

635
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:54,159
quite an interesting fellow

636
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:57,679
sort of idiosyncratic and a free thinker

637
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:01,039
and in one chapter that book he reported

638
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:03,200
a missing time episode

639
00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:06,080
he was at his cabin in mendocino uh

640
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:08,480
california

641
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:09,600
and

642
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,400
he

643
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:12,400
was walking on his property

644
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:14,640
and as crazy as it sounds and it does

645
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:16,080
sound crazy

646
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,960
uh he said that a raccoon said to him if

647
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,320
i remember correctly

648
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,480
uh good evening doctor

649
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:24,080
and then he

650
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:25,600
the next thing he knew

651
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:27,600
um it was a whole bunch of hours later

652
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:29,039
and he was at a different part of his

653
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:30,559
property and he was walking back toward

654
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:32,080
his cabin

655
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,120
and

656
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:35,200
he found that a very disturbing

657
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:38,159
experience as anyone would

658
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:39,200
but

659
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:41,200
the thing that struck me about that was

660
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:42,960
if it was just

661
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,600
him reporting that i would think okay

662
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:47,279
who knows what happened there could be a

663
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:49,600
psychological issue

664
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:52,159
he talks about having taken lsd in the

665
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:53,279
past

666
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:54,640
maybe there was some issue there who

667
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:55,520
knows

668
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:57,039
but then a few years later he got a call

669
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:59,039
from his daughter

670
00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:00,880
and his daughter said

671
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:01,840
that

672
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:03,840
she was on the you know at his cabin

673
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:09,430
and she went missing

674
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:11,279
and her boyfriend was looking for and

675
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:12,240
she

676
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,279
making her way back to the cabin from a

677
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:19,279
similar location where

678
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:22,400
carrie mullis did when he went missing

679
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:23,200
so

680
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:24,480
uh i didn't know what to think of that

681
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:26,640
and the chapter was

682
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,320
uh not meant to be an exhaustive

683
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:30,480
examination of that particular case but

684
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:32,480
it struck me as really weird and i i

685
00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:34,400
sort of trusted his

686
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:38,559
um his testimony so i thought huh that's

687
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,400
really weird and i just i don't want to

688
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,080
pre-judge it i'll just sort of

689
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:44,720
put that into uh you know who knows

690
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:46,000
category

691
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:47,919
a couple years after that

692
00:26:52,870 --> 00:26:49,760
well a few years after that i read

693
00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:52,880
stephen greer's disclosure

694
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:54,320
now i don't have

695
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:01,110
stephen greer's

696
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,799
methodologies

697
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,279
but i found that book

698
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:07,840
unsettling i guess you could say

699
00:27:11,190 --> 00:27:09,440
um

700
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:11,200
i

701
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,240
an adequate

702
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:20,159
examination of a lot of the witnesses

703
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:22,000
there's just too many questions that

704
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:23,120
seem to be lying on the table that

705
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:24,799
weren't asked but

706
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,080
um

707
00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:27,600
you read a book like that and you think

708
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:30,559
okay what's what's going on here

709
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,720
a is it the case that everyone is

710
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:35,039
mistaken they're just

711
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:37,279
in some cases just wildly mistaken about

712
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,039
uh things they've seen

713
00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:41,520
it's possible i suppose

714
00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:43,520
um another possibility is that maybe

715
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:44,960
they're all hoaxing

716
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:45,840
um

717
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:47,679
all of those people hoaxing would be

718
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,000
highly unlikely it seems to me

719
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:52,480
um and the last possibility would be

720
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:54,720
well maybe they did see something that's

721
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,559
unexplained and maybe some of those

722
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:58,640
things are unexplained didn't come from

723
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,000
earth

724
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:03,360
so i i couldn't i couldn't fit that book

725
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:05,039
into uh

726
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:06,480
um

727
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:09,440
uh a closed skeptic box

728
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,559
that would

729
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:13,200
it sort of allow me to put a bow and tie

730
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:14,960
on

731
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,200
my view of the universe and say okay

732
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:19,440
explained you know next

733
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:22,320
that that really sort of stayed with me

734
00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:24,399
what i thought was also very interesting

735
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:27,200
was i gave this book to a friend of mine

736
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:28,640
um who's also played a role in

737
00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:31,520
skepticism he's a very very smart guy

738
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:33,760
one of the smartest people i know

739
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,399
and encouraged him to read it

740
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:38,880
we got together a few weeks later and he

741
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,039
had basically come to the same place

742
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:43,120
that i did i think which was

743
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:45,039
from a place of skepticism to a kind of

744
00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:46,880
well i just don't know it could be

745
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:48,080
possible

746
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:49,279
so

747
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,240
um

748
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:52,000
those are two things

749
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:54,240
and i'm not sure if

750
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:56,559
we should go into this or not but i

751
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:00,159
i had a um experience when i was about

752
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:01,840
uh nine years old

753
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,480
that um i sort of tucked away and it

754
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,320
didn't pull out again until i was you

755
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,320
know probably back in college and that

756
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,840
uh

757
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:11,279
that's that's been a real puzzler to me

758
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:12,799
ever since

759
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:15,279
can you describe that encounter

760
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,750
late 70s

761
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,919
southern wisconsin

762
00:29:27,269 --> 00:29:25,120
i was

763
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:27,279
visiting my grandparents farm with my

764
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:28,880
family we'd go down there a few times

765
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:31,039
during the summer

766
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:32,960
i think saturday morning my brother and

767
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:35,120
i who was two years younger

768
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:37,039
we left the

769
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:38,480
farmhouse

770
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:40,480
and this is this is um

771
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:41,840
pretty flat

772
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:43,200
farm country

773
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:46,320
um you can see for great distances

774
00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:47,760
and we were walking out to the farm

775
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:50,559
field as we typically did probably

776
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:51,760
you know intending to get in trouble

777
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:52,880
that day

778
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:54,640
and happened to look up

779
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:57,279
and i saw

780
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,960
what looked to be something the size of

781
00:30:01,909 --> 00:30:00,159
the moon

782
00:30:03,669 --> 00:30:01,919
um but it wasn't

783
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,679
it wasn't the moon

784
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:05,600
um

785
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:08,399
and it was moving very noticeably down

786
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:09,840
so it's maybe about

787
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:13,120
60 degrees up

788
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:15,679
and it would be moving down for a few

789
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:18,799
seconds and then completely disappear

790
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:20,840
and then reappear again a little bit

791
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:24,480
lower and it was a disc it had a uniform

792
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,990
a white with maybe a little bluish tinge

793
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:31,520
to it

794
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:32,960
and so it was

795
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,159
doing this for about 10 12 seconds and

796
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:38,399
we both stood there transfixed

797
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:39,919
um i don't think either one of us could

798
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:41,919
by any stretch of the imagination

799
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:43,440
be said to

800
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,159
you know have had any expertise in like

801
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,240
you know aircraft identification or

802
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:50,720
anything like that but i did have

803
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:52,960
um an interest in airplanes at the time

804
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:55,760
and i have a pilot's license right now

805
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,080
so i was the kind of kid who would look

806
00:31:02,230 --> 00:31:00,640
up and see things but this just it

807
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:02,240
didn't fit in any kind of category that

808
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:03,279
i

809
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:12,000
um

810
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,360
finale to it where it

811
00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:19,919
got maybe about 10 15 degrees above the

812
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:23,440
horizon and it appeared to rotate

813
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:26,159
like if you had a plate like the paper

814
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:27,679
plate in front of you

815
00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:30,399
and then you start to rotate it

816
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:32,559
and so it goes from a circle to being an

817
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,760
oval

818
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,240
and right when it got on its edge

819
00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:38,559
it disappeared for about a second

820
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,679
and then

821
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:41,440
something sort of looked like it fell

822
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:44,080
from it that was sort of a deltoid

823
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:45,919
kind of shape and it went piece of

824
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:50,389
and of course my grandma

825
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,919
you know came out after

826
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:54,000
that whole thing happened

827
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,919
um and i've

828
00:32:00,310 --> 00:31:57,679
there's a couple of things i told myself

829
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,320
after that one is that i could have um

830
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,440
just memory is fallible i could have

831
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:05,200
you know

832
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:07,039
misremembered over time i could have

833
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,720
added details

834
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:09,840
um

835
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:10,880
and i thought well maybe it was a

836
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,200
weather balloon but i

837
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:15,360
i can't seem to make that exactly fit so

838
00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:16,480
it's uh

839
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:18,399
an unknown i guess to me

840
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,880
when um just to just change the subject

841
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:22,240
just for a second we'll jump back to

842
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,279
that but

843
00:32:27,669 --> 00:32:25,440
as a skeptic since you were involved in

844
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,679
the skeptic society

845
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,559
what

846
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:30,399
um

847
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:33,039
why would you think that

848
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,399
so many people just plain debunk and

849
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:38,720
i've listened to a couple skeptic shows

850
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:39,440
and

851
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:45,360
that type of thing instead of like um

852
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:46,640
the way

853
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:48,480
the skepticism is supposed to work is

854
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:51,200
critical thinking and am i right by that

855
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:53,600
and um can you describe you know to the

856
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:54,559
listener

857
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:57,279
what a skeptic really should be compared

858
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:59,440
to what a lot of them seem to be and by

859
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:01,200
the way if you're listening live you can

860
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:03,200
jump in the chat room ask our guests a

861
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,399
question at podcastufo.com so go ahead

862
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:07,919
if you would describe what a true

863
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,039
skeptic is supposed to be

864
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:13,200
well um i should say that i i wouldn't

865
00:33:16,389 --> 00:33:14,720
want to paint the entire

866
00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:16,399
skeptic movement with the same brush i

867
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:17,600
think there are plenty of open-minded

868
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:19,760
people in it but one of the problems is

869
00:33:23,909 --> 00:33:21,440
that

870
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:23,919
many of the elites within

871
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:26,000
that movement

872
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:27,039
they

873
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:29,440
tend to be

874
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:31,360
i think sort of dogmatic on this

875
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:32,799
question

876
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:39,190
follows the evidence

877
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:42,320
uh a true skeptic is aware of one of the

878
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:43,919
greatest

879
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:46,559
uh distortions in human psychology when

880
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:48,320
it comes to epistemology and trying to

881
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,080
determine the truth of something which

882
00:33:54,630 --> 00:33:52,480
is confirmation bias

883
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:54,640
ironically

884
00:33:58,630 --> 00:33:56,720
as much as that particular term might

885
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,640
come up in skeptic literature

886
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,559
it's still possible to identify skeptics

887
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:03,840
who run roughshod over

888
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,120
the

889
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:07,679
caution that that human tendency

890
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:09,440
um gives us

891
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:10,240
you know

892
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,000
when we're trying to

893
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:14,560
uh engage in you know some kind of uh

894
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:16,960
contentious issue

895
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:18,960
so um

896
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:21,359
you know as a skeptic is not

897
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:22,560
um

898
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:27,760
an a priori uh debunker

899
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:30,800
uh a skeptic is someone who

900
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:31,679
um

901
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,000
keeps an open mind and

902
00:34:38,470 --> 00:34:36,480
engages in a process of self-criticism

903
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:38,480
in addition to you know the necessary

904
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:42,560
criticism of you know claims to truth

905
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:44,879
okay that's good um a question came up

906
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:46,320
on the message board

907
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:50,879
and um the person wants you to explain

908
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:52,800
where you think the hardcore skeptics

909
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:01,829
the first thing i'd say about that would

910
00:35:06,310 --> 00:35:04,560
be that i think that um

911
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:06,320
they have a kind of

912
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:07,599
um

913
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:10,320
i would put it as a metaphysical

914
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:11,760
commitment

915
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:14,160
to the idea that

916
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:19,119
we can't be uh being visited by ets

917
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:19,920
now

918
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:21,040
seeing that

919
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:22,000
um

920
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:27,760
would i justify that how would that work

921
00:35:31,589 --> 00:35:30,240
um i don't have a complete theory uh

922
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:31,599
about that

923
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,960
but

924
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,240
um

925
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,560
it seems to me that despite

926
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:38,160
you know the ready admission of many

927
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:40,960
skeptics that sure it's a huge universe

928
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:41,839
and

929
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:44,480
you know evolution is a natural process

930
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,920
and

931
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:48,160
as was discussed earlier in your program

932
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,920
you know it's very likely that life is

933
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,599
seated everywhere and there's

934
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:53,839
intelligent life quite possibly a lot of

935
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:57,599
it even in our own galaxy despite that

936
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:59,440
the possibility that there might be some

937
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:00,720
kind of

938
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:03,040
other civilization that is very far

939
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:04,160
ahead of us

940
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:05,920
i can't help but wonder

941
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:06,800
if

942
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:09,440
that is just a real threat on multiple

943
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:11,520
levels so i guess maybe that's what i'm

944
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:13,040
getting at is that this is a kind of

945
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:14,079
threat

946
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:19,760
identity

947
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:20,720
um

948
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,880
i mean if

949
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,960
if you assume that uh let's say some

950
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:28,640
extraterrestrial civil civilization is

951
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:30,720
ten thousand years ahead of us

952
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:34,240
they may may very well have powers of

953
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:35,359
um

954
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:37,200
minneapolis excuse me manipulation over

955
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:38,640
matter

956
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,240
manipulation of their bodies and their

957
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:42,240
minds and technology

958
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:43,200
um

959
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:45,520
such that it would really

960
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:48,240
pose a kind of ontological crisis if you

961
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:51,200
will a identity crisis for humanity to

962
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,280
know that that could very well be in our

963
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:55,119
future and that almost everything we

964
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:57,119
assume about ourselves we have to toss

965
00:37:01,670 --> 00:36:58,400
out

966
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:01,680
um so i think that's one aspect of it

967
00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:05,040
um another is a kind of um

968
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:12,710
academia within science within

969
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:15,520
sort of official culture

970
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:21,349
ufos of an ep origin

971
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,280
are just you know the product of

972
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:27,119
people who are sort of naive who don't

973
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:29,599
know what's going on people who

974
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:35,510
things that we just can't take uh

975
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,520
seriously

976
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,440
and

977
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:41,119
as a consequence

978
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:42,960
um

979
00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:45,280
you know if that's sort of a given truth

980
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:46,800
then

981
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:48,880
um it's not really a matter of

982
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:52,560
um evidence so much as it is

983
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:54,800
it's a kind of uh psychological block it

984
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:55,920
seems to me

985
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:58,000
i mean one example of this

986
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:00,800
um there is um

987
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:03,520
uh article in the daily mail

988
00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:04,720
from a couple weeks ago maybe some of

989
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:06,079
you saw that

990
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,920
and it looked like a lenticular cloud

991
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:11,760
but the people who took the picture of

992
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,560
it said no that's not the case it's it

993
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:17,280
was moving way too fast

994
00:38:23,349 --> 00:38:20,960
and ordered um an academic

995
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:23,359
who looked at it and said well

996
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:25,760
it can't be from elsewhere because those

997
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:28,160
distances are too great

998
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:29,839
and once you say that then that

999
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:32,000
presumably just shuts down the arguments

1000
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:34,720
well distance distances are too great um

1001
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:36,880
and discussion

1002
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:39,440
so um

1003
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:41,440
yeah i

1004
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:43,520
i think that uh

1005
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:47,280
we can't look to uh evidence for the

1006
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:49,920
reason why there's a kind of

1007
00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:51,839
dogmatism among

1008
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:53,440
official

1009
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,359
intellectual culture

1010
00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:58,079
it's really sort of a psychological

1011
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:01,359
thing and i think i think if you were to

1012
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,880
sort of comb through

1013
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,880
enough statements by uh skeptics you

1014
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:06,000
would see that

1015
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:07,839
and i we could have a big discussion

1016
00:39:12,829 --> 00:39:08,720
about

1017
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:15,829
um one of the things um

1018
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:17,680
you think about the

1019
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,359
human you know

1020
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:20,960
we're fallible

1021
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:25,200
um and

1022
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,280
it's kind of amazing when i listen to

1023
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,440
your sighting because it was

1024
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,359
actually very similar to mine which

1025
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:33,520
actually changed my life and

1026
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:36,720
the reason this show is going

1027
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,359
right down to the bluish tint

1028
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:41,760
the hue that it had that's and you know

1029
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:49,589
as far as witnesses go and as far as um

1030
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:53,040
eyewitnesses go you know um i had a

1031
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:54,560
a debate

1032
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:56,960
with uh seth showstack from seti a while

1033
00:40:02,390 --> 00:39:59,200
back and he said that the human

1034
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:02,400
witnesses eyewitnesses mean nothing

1035
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:04,960
and what is your your stand on on

1036
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:10,950
well

1037
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,400
um

1038
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:15,359
first i'll say that i'm

1039
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:17,839
uh very appreciative of

1040
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:21,359
the research that's been done on

1041
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:22,800
problems with

1042
00:40:30,309 --> 00:40:28,470
estimation judgment memory

1043
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,319
these are very real things they can they

1044
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:33,990
distort

1045
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,839
what people see

1046
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:38,640
however

1047
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:41,040
there's a kind of implicit artificial

1048
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:42,800
distinction

1049
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:44,240
that's made by skeptics and this is

1050
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:46,319
another reason why you might find a lot

1051
00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:48,960
of dogmatism

1052
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:50,839
and that is

1053
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:54,800
uh on one hand there's testimony of

1054
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:57,680
extraordinary ufo claims

1055
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:01,040
and there's the kind of testimony that

1056
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:03,599
is part of the rest of life

1057
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:06,000
and the testimony that

1058
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,920
references ufo claims

1059
00:41:13,270 --> 00:41:09,680
is given

1060
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:13,280
extra and asymmetrical scrutiny

1061
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:16,400
whereas the testimony which pervades

1062
00:41:19,670 --> 00:41:17,920
the rest of

1063
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:19,680
human experience

1064
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,520
doesn't get quite that

1065
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:23,839
attention

1066
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,920
another point about testimony is that

1067
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,160
science depends on testimony

1068
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:32,000
every single

1069
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:33,760
observation that's made by a scientist

1070
00:41:38,069 --> 00:41:36,400
doesn't magically um extricate itself

1071
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:38,079
from the possibility of

1072
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:39,280
failure or

1073
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:42,160
misperception that's also an observation

1074
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:43,920
and when that scientist then records the

1075
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,359
results that's a form of testimony

1076
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,680
scientific journal articles

1077
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:51,599
that's a form of testimony there are

1078
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,680
many points along uh the route to get

1079
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:55,359
now published where there could be

1080
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:57,359
mistakes and of course

1081
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:59,520
um no one assumes that you know just

1082
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:00,800
because something shows up in the

1083
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:03,520
scientific journal that it's infallible

1084
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:04,240
um

1085
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:06,240
so i think it's really a failure to

1086
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:09,599
appreciate just how dependent we are

1087
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:12,400
on um testimony in all aspects of our

1088
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:14,400
lives including science

1089
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:17,440
science is really no different but the

1090
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:18,400
the

1091
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:24,160
um recognizes that and says well okay we

1092
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:27,119
could be wrong so here's my experiment

1093
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,680
i'll write about this now someone else

1094
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:30,960
do this too and see if you get the same

1095
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:36,870
so um i think it's an unequal

1096
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:38,960
treatment of

1097
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:42,560
the role of testimony in human life

1098
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:44,160
now i don't know how much you've looked

1099
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:45,440
into this at all or if you've ever

1100
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:47,920
looked in it into it but um

1101
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,079
what's your opinion on

1102
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:52,720
at least at some points here and there

1103
00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:55,119
the government covering up

1104
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:57,119
say things um

1105
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,069
you know i'm

1106
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,480
i go back and forth on that one

1107
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:08,720
um after having read

1108
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:15,030
two book

1109
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,800
series on the national security state

1110
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:18,480
and ufos

1111
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,839
you're left with the overwhelming

1112
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,040
impression

1113
00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:23,280
that

1114
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:24,800
there are people

1115
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:27,280
who have to know something

1116
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:28,319
um

1117
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:30,160
what they know is of course the question

1118
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:31,599
and i wouldn't even

1119
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:33,520
really dare to speculate on that

1120
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:36,480
but it seems uh to me that

1121
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:38,319
someone somewhere maybe some people

1122
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:41,040
maybe there's some files um

1123
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,480
you know touching this topic and may

1124
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:44,800
have some extra information that um

1125
00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:48,079
we haven't been able to get otherwise

1126
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:49,599
but i wouldn't want to say much more

1127
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,599
beyond that because i find

1128
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:53,280
i find that whole question sort of

1129
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,640
impenetrable

1130
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:56,720
i think a lot of people do who have

1131
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:02,390
we have a message up on

1132
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:03,359
the

1133
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:08,069
and i i'm not sure what you're going to

1134
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:09,839
think about but is it possible the

1135
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:12,160
modern day skeptical community has its

1136
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:13,920
roots roots

1137
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:15,520
in the attempt to cover up the truth

1138
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:16,960
about ufos

1139
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,319
known by certain people in the

1140
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:19,440
government

1141
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:27,829
um

1142
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:31,510
let's see howard menzel was uh

1143
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:34,960
you know a notorious skeptic

1144
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:37,440
um

1145
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:43,910
carl sagan was a skeptic

1146
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,790
you know i i guess my my take on that

1147
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:50,720
would be that

1148
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:53,599
um it's sort of a common saying in the

1149
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:55,920
sort of skeptic free thought community

1150
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:56,800
that

1151
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:59,119
trying to organize uh skeptics is like

1152
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:01,040
trying to organize uh

1153
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:02,480
you know cats

1154
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:04,480
you know there are so many

1155
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:05,839
um

1156
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:08,720
you know opinionated free thinking

1157
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:09,599
um

1158
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:11,359
very critical people

1159
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:12,720
who

1160
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:14,720
you know if you look at

1161
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:16,720
um some of the popular free thought

1162
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:17,920
skeptic

1163
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:19,599
even atheist

1164
00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:21,040
blogs

1165
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:23,119
the discussion there can be very

1166
00:45:25,910 --> 00:45:24,720
rancorous

1167
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:25,920
so

1168
00:45:30,870 --> 00:45:28,800
the idea that there's maybe a kind of

1169
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:30,880
governing authority of skepticism that

1170
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:32,960
sort of keeps the lid on things

1171
00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:36,079
i would uh completely reject uh because

1172
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:38,000
there are too many people who just flat

1173
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:41,280
out our anti-authority within skepticism

1174
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:43,520
um if they smell a wrath they're gonna

1175
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:47,040
go after it um they're

1176
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:49,119
they're they're definitely not a in many

1177
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:51,200
instances they're not a lock lock and

1178
00:46:01,750 --> 00:45:59,589
you think of

1179
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:01,760
the person that comes to mind as far as

1180
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,880
these skeptics go is uh phillip gloss

1181
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,800
are you familiar with him

1182
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:08,000
somewhat

1183
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,520
you know a lot of people

1184
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,800
kind of thought there was something a

1185
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:12,400
little more

1186
00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:16,000
than just his opinion going on there

1187
00:46:20,150 --> 00:46:18,240
he raised a lot of eyebrows in a lot of

1188
00:46:21,910 --> 00:46:20,160
different communities not just the ufo

1189
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:21,920
community of course

1190
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:24,160
if you were

1191
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:28,560
the ufo topic

1192
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:30,319
to other so you know you mentioned

1193
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:32,319
paranormal early on

1194
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,680
um do you think it's one of the more

1195
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,440
believable topics i don't know if that's

1196
00:46:40,829 --> 00:46:39,440
the right word i want to use or one of

1197
00:46:45,109 --> 00:46:40,839
the more

1198
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:45,119
uh credible topics for a skeptic to

1199
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,359
actually take note of

1200
00:46:51,349 --> 00:46:49,520
i i think it is

1201
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:51,359
um and i think for two reasons one is

1202
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:54,240
just the theoretical reason which is

1203
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:56,960
um despite the great lengths

1204
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,440
uh of distance involved

1205
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,800
um

1206
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:02,480
you know everything else sort of points

1207
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:03,599
to the likelihood of there being

1208
00:47:07,589 --> 00:47:05,520
intelligence and

1209
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:07,599
those lengths also have a flip side

1210
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:08,640
which is

1211
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:11,680
huge amounts of time for probes and

1212
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:18,230
spacecraft that maybe contain embryos

1213
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:20,400
that could be grown in a artificial womb

1214
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:21,520
etc

1215
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:24,640
once they arrived on target

1216
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:26,720
so theoretically i don't think it poses

1217
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:29,599
a huge problem at all for skeptics it

1218
00:47:34,790 --> 00:47:31,599
shouldn't

1219
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:36,549
you know i think i forgot my second

1220
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:38,960
point but that's that's probably the

1221
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:40,559
main thing for me is i don't i don't

1222
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,440
think there's any huge um theoretical uh

1223
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:45,359
problem for skeptics to

1224
00:47:49,190 --> 00:47:47,119
uh pay attention to this oh the second

1225
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:49,200
point was that

1226
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:51,280
you know once you look into enough of

1227
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,040
these cases

1228
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:55,119
it becomes really difficult to accept

1229
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:56,079
that

1230
00:47:59,270 --> 00:47:57,520
you know everything

1231
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:59,280
is a misperception or everything is a

1232
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,160
hoax

1233
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,000
i mean i still sort of hold out that

1234
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:04,960
maybe that's the case but i'm

1235
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,119
increasingly last uh confident that

1236
00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:09,359
those are you know the sort of

1237
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:11,119
uh conclusions that can be drawn when

1238
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:13,280
you when you uh look at things

1239
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,040
um there's just a lot of weird things

1240
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:16,800
that have happened um that just sort of

1241
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:19,119
defy explanation um

1242
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:21,200
and i wish more skeptics would

1243
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:23,520
uh take the time to dive into

1244
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:25,760
uh the available resources

1245
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,240
now do you know any skeptics personally

1246
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:30,079
that actually

1247
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:31,920
kind of share your your thoughts and

1248
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:38,069
aside from the friend

1249
00:48:43,589 --> 00:48:41,040
to whom i handed the um greer book

1250
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:43,599
disclosure

1251
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:44,960
i don't know of any

1252
00:48:49,109 --> 00:48:46,240
other skeptics

1253
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:49,119
who share my exact uh point of view i

1254
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:50,240
have to assume that they're out there

1255
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:51,920
because i've met plenty of skeptics who

1256
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,200
are just

1257
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,200
they're so down to earth and so

1258
00:48:59,190 --> 00:48:57,119
reasonable about so many things it would

1259
00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:59,200
surprise me if others weren't

1260
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:01,119
uh weren't like that

1261
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:03,280
but as i think we all know

1262
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:04,880
you know they're typically not the ones

1263
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:07,359
who are you know the publishers of the

1264
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:08,800
the magazines and the ones who are

1265
00:49:14,069 --> 00:49:11,040
invited to speak at conferences

1266
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:14,079
ah yes i understand that and

1267
00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:18,000
and speaking of um of conferences and

1268
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:21,760
alike um the ufo community now there's

1269
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:22,800
some

1270
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:26,880
people that are way way out there

1271
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:29,680
and understandably attacked by the

1272
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:33,040
skeptical community and greer is

1273
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:35,359
actually someone that i've attacked on

1274
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,480
this show a few times but

1275
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,559
in general

1276
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,559
when you're out there and you're talking

1277
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:45,359
skeptics are talking about the ufo

1278
00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:46,400
subject

1279
00:49:50,069 --> 00:49:48,240
does that come up a lot of these the

1280
00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:50,079
people that are just plain whacked out

1281
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:51,440
there that are

1282
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:54,630
yeah

1283
00:50:00,069 --> 00:49:56,240
in fact i sort of have a sense that

1284
00:50:02,069 --> 00:50:00,079
they're the ones who are the

1285
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:02,079
poster children for the whole rest of

1286
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,839
the movement

1287
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:05,440
um

1288
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:08,480
i mean we all have to admit that the the

1289
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,839
really far out uh

1290
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:13,040
um

1291
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:14,559
you know sort of make us shake our heads

1292
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:16,640
and think well how could they possibly

1293
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:18,480
believe that um

1294
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:20,800
there might also be an element of humor

1295
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:23,200
involved with um

1296
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,040
sort of critiquing you know their

1297
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:28,160
particular beliefs

1298
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:30,079
but a lot of that tends to get

1299
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:32,880
foregrounded and tends to represent the

1300
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:34,720
the whole

1301
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:36,800
field

1302
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:39,359
and that's why i think that if

1303
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,800
if ufology is to really

1304
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:44,960
um sort of pull itself up

1305
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,480
and establish a more serious face to the

1306
00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:50,079
the rest of the culture

1307
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:52,079
um the people who are

1308
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:54,079
you know open-minded but appropriately

1309
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:55,280
skeptical

1310
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:56,880
really have to

1311
00:51:02,069 --> 00:50:57,680
um

1312
00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:02,079
things and how they're done

1313
00:51:04,950 --> 00:51:03,839
and one of those things is

1314
00:51:06,829 --> 00:51:04,960
is really

1315
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:06,839
highlighting and drawing a more

1316
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:09,119
critical bit of attention to the people

1317
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:10,880
who are

1318
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:11,920
i guess you might call the true

1319
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:13,520
believers

1320
00:51:17,030 --> 00:51:15,119
um i think there's a bunch of other

1321
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:17,040
things too that ufology should do along

1322
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:19,040
those lines um

1323
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:21,040
i mean for instance uh i think there's a

1324
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,280
desperate need for

1325
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:25,760
some kind of um really well developed

1326
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:29,200
attractive easy to use database online

1327
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:31,680
um that's maybe called something like uh

1328
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,640
what ufos are not dot com you know it's

1329
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:36,960
funny you mentioned that um a former

1330
00:51:43,589 --> 00:51:40,319
guest ryan molly he posted up on a

1331
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:43,599
facebook page about ufos that we needed

1332
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:45,359
to start something like this this was

1333
00:51:48,549 --> 00:51:46,720
just last week

1334
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,559
and boy i'll tell you the comments came

1335
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:50,960
flooding in from everywhere it was uh it

1336
00:51:53,670 --> 00:51:52,480
was quite interesting to read all the

1337
00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:53,680
comments

1338
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:56,880
and there's it's kind of like i i agree

1339
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:58,480
with you there and i agree with his

1340
00:52:03,510 --> 00:52:01,680
thoughts but also the debate on who is

1341
00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:03,520
the person to oversee this and who's the

1342
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:06,000
one to cull the uh

1343
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:07,760
you know the wheat from the chaff and

1344
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:10,640
and and all that and um you know you can

1345
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:12,880
go on youtube right now and find

1346
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,160
50 hoaxes for every one very interesting

1347
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,280
yeah you know video so i guess

1348
00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:21,599
i do agree with that but there's a lot

1349
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,599
there's a lot of gray areas and who

1350
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:25,520
would who would be admitting something

1351
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:28,000
like that you know that's the tough part

1352
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:29,520
yeah i think that you've hit it right in

1353
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:30,480
the head that would be a really

1354
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:36,870
we have let's see we have

1355
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:38,800
just about four

1356
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:41,200
uh yeah four minutes left or so

1357
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:43,119
so um i'm going to ask you have you read

1358
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,040
any other books besides the one you

1359
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:46,800
mentioned did you happen to read leslie

1360
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:49,280
keane's book are you familiar with her

1361
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:53,040
yeah i did i read that uh ufos um what's

1362
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:55,119
the subtitle to that pilot's general the

1363
00:52:58,790 --> 00:52:57,280
teacher go on the record

1364
00:53:02,390 --> 00:52:58,800
um

1365
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:02,400
appreciate the fact that she wrote it

1366
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:04,000
but

1367
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:06,640
my my main criticism of it

1368
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:09,520
was that it wasn't nearly as

1369
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:11,680
critical as it needed to be

1370
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:14,559
um any ufo book that comes out that

1371
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:17,200
doesn't sort of anticipate the

1372
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:19,119
um

1373
00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:20,480
analytical

1374
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,000
uh demands

1375
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:24,000
of a proper investigation

1376
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,119
is going to be

1377
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:27,440
easily setting itself up for you know

1378
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:32,309
so

1379
00:53:36,309 --> 00:53:34,000
my i guess my general critique of that

1380
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,319
book and and a number of other ufo books

1381
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,079
i've read

1382
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:40,880
um and podcasts i've heard and

1383
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:42,880
things i read online

1384
00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:47,670
there needs to be a

1385
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,520
really rigorous

1386
00:53:54,870 --> 00:53:51,599
uh

1387
00:53:58,470 --> 00:53:54,880
method of asking questions

1388
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:58,480
and applying doubt not not

1389
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:01,040
debunking dogmatic doubt but

1390
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,280
you know trying to really find out

1391
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:05,359
um the integrity of a person then the

1392
00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:07,520
integrity of um you know their

1393
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:09,920
perceptions uh their judgment and so

1394
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,680
forth just

1395
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:13,440
an approach that's

1396
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:15,119
more probing

1397
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:18,240
critical doubtful rigorous i think is in

1398
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,960
desperate demand at all times

1399
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:22,160
so that's my

1400
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:25,040
that was my general read on that book um

1401
00:54:28,870 --> 00:54:27,440
i appreciated that she wrote it and

1402
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:28,880
um there were a few things in there that

1403
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,960
i hadn't read about before and i i

1404
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:32,319
thought wow that's really interesting

1405
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:35,680
didn't know about that and you know um

1406
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:37,440
but i haven't had time to you know

1407
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:38,880
pursue a lot of that

1408
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:40,880
so it's one of those things you read and

1409
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:42,000
you

1410
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:47,920
yeah i i personally think that's one of

1411
00:54:52,230 --> 00:54:50,160
the better books out there is there any

1412
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,240
other ones that you have read we have

1413
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:54,240
just like a minute a minute and a few

1414
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,440
seconds left

1415
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:57,440
many other books that you can think of

1416
00:55:01,990 --> 00:54:59,920
that you read that were

1417
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:02,000
what you would call a really good ufo

1418
00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:06,390
um

1419
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:10,000
i'm scratching my memory to

1420
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,359
think of the title that it was one of

1421
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:13,520
jack vale's books i was

1422
00:55:18,390 --> 00:55:16,480
i was fairly impressed with

1423
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:18,400
yeah um

1424
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:20,400
i'm not sure what you think about valet

1425
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:21,760
but i i was

1426
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:25,040
he was a pleasant surprise yeah he's uh

1427
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:26,559
he's one of the solid ones out there in

1428
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:28,160
my opinion you know i don't know what

1429
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:30,480
the general ufology

1430
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:32,319
thinks to him but i think it's um it's

1431
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:34,000
pretty good there's there's only

1432
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:34,960
something

1433
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:37,280
one time odd that i heard him say other

1434
00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:39,599
than that he's been pretty pretty good

1435
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,559
um well we're we're coming down to about

1436
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:44,960
30 seconds left so i want to thank you

1437
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:47,599
very much for being on the show

1438
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,400
and

1439
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:50,559
i usually ask people to give out their

1440
00:55:59,589 --> 00:55:57,670
so uh anyway a real pleasure and uh are

1441
00:56:01,589 --> 00:55:59,599
you um you you mentioned just a second

1442
00:56:03,829 --> 00:56:01,599
ago that you listened to podcasts have

1443
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:03,839
do you listen to other ufo podcasts out

1444
00:56:08,549 --> 00:56:06,000
there or have you

1445
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:08,559
i the one i listen to most often

1446
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:10,559
uh is probably the paracast

1447
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:12,240
right yeah there's a lot of good guests

1448
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:14,400
on there and they do a nice job i like

1449
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:15,599
the paracast too except for the

1450
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,880
commercials

1451
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:18,240
yeah anyway

1452
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,359
thank you very much and um i'll talk to

1453
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,359
you later so that's it for the show

1454
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:25,119
today if you missed any part of the show

1455
00:56:28,950 --> 00:56:27,280
you can catch it as a podcast and a

1456
00:56:32,230 --> 00:56:28,960
whole bunch of other free podcasts on

1457
00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:32,240
our website which is podcastufo.com

1458
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:35,119
our guest next week is undetermined it's

1459
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:35,839
uh

1460
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,079
we have a couple people that are rolling

1461
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:40,559
around we will come up with someone and

1462
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:42,400
we'll be back next week i want to thank

1463
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:43,839
everyone for helping out with the show

1464
00:56:48,150 --> 00:56:46,319
today our guest of course eric

1465
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:48,160
keith roland producer for the dark

1466
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:51,440
matter radio network alejandro rojas the

1467
00:56:56,950 --> 00:56:54,160
latest ufo news carrie lloyd whitehouse

1468
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:56,960
for our music petty peggy shunning for

1469
00:57:02,230 --> 00:56:59,359
managing our facebook page and remember

1470
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:02,240
for all all the latest ufo news

1471
00:57:06,710 --> 00:57:04,160
astronomical news you can like us on

1472
00:57:08,470 --> 00:57:06,720
facebook you can check us out live right

1473
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:08,480
here next week on the dark matter radio

1474
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:10,559
network and every wednesday at 9 pm

1475
00:57:14,589 --> 00:57:12,559
eastern standard time and don't forget

1476
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:14,599
to jump in the chatroom at

1477
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,880
podcastufo.com this is martin willis